A Response to the Denial of Sexism

Note: This diary was posted at DKos, in response to an "open letter" to Hillary supporters.  The open letter sat at the top of the Rec list this morning, but has since been knocked off.

Stop it.

Stop these diaries, these "open letters."  Stop explaining to me where Hillary went wrong as if you are doing me, or any of us, a favor.

And most of all, stop telling me sexism doesn't matter.

There's a diary that sat at the top of the Rec list this morning at DKos, (cross-posted at MyDD as well), in which the diarist states, as others have and surely more will do, that sexism is not the problem.  It's not even a problem.

Yes, there has been a little sexism.  Just like there has been a little racism.

But Hillary isn't losing because of sexism.  

"We hate the bitch, but not because she's a woman."  That's the meme now.  Acutally, that's been the meme for a while.  And I don't doubt there is truth to it.  Even I, someone who has supported Hillary, can point to a number of places where she and her campaign went wrong.  

But that's not the point.

I am sure that some people in this country, in this party, have voted against Hillary because she's a woman.  But I don't believe for a second that's where the majority of Obama's votes came from.  He has worked hard and run an excellent campaign; I do not deny that.

But just as we have discussed race in this campaign as something more often subliminal, something that has asserted itself through "dog whistles" and "coded language" and "innuendo" and subtle suggestions that seek to subliminally remind us that he is -- gasp! -- black, so too have we seen this happen with sexism.

But we have not seen the same reaction.

Obama's presence in this campaign has provoked a national discussion about race, a "major" speech in Philadelphia, and seemingly endless diaries around the blogosphere from white people apologizing for the sins of racism and black people finally finding the courage to point an accusatory finger and talk honestly of their experiences with "typical white Americans."

And that's a good thing.  It's healthy for our party and for our country.  We can hide our heads in the sand, or pat ourselves on the back, but the truth is that we have not eliminated racism from our culture.  

And we have not defeated sexism either.

Before the race even started, it was there.  Before a single vote was cast, before either side engaged in "race baiting," before all the -gates cited by Obama's supporters as proof that their hatred of Clinton is justified (and not about gender)...Before all of that, there was sexism.

An article in the New York Times analyzed the Clinton marriage and how many nights they spend together and whether, according to outside observers, the Clinton marriage was "good."

There was the column in the Washington Post about Clinton's cleavage.  Yes, her cleavage.  As if she'd pranced about in a Brittney Spears outfit.  And no, there was no equivalent column the following week about Obama's shapely ass.

Every talking head on every cable network -- even the supposedly less-offensive MSNBC -- feels perfectly comfortable discussing Clinton as old, as unattractive, and, of course, as someone around whom them must carefully protect their precious balls, lest she crush them with her thighs (see Hillary Clinton Nutcracker), or even with just her stern, cold, robotic, school-marm, first wife stare.

And now it is apparently acceptable to compare her to the psychotic homewrecker from "Fatal Attraction."  As if she really will kidnap our children and boil our pets.

When it comes to discussing sexism during this campaign, nuance gets thrown out the window.  Instead, the anti-Hillary crowd laughs, jeers, mocks.  Silly little feminists.  Silly little women.  Get out of the way.  Shut the hell up.  We don't need you anyway.

Earlier in this campaign season, the blogosphere was all in a tizzy about a Clinton ad that used a photograph of Obama that some insisted had been doctored.  It made Obama's skin look darker, and his features, particularly his mouth and nose, more prominent.  The suggestion by many was that this was a deliberate smear job to make Obama appear more "black" and therefore more "menacing."  It was a subtle reminder, a dog whistle.  It was an evil ploy by the Clinton team to remind us, by suggestion only, that Obama is black and black is scary.

And yet...

The language, the pictures, the analysis that reminds us that Clinton is a woman, and women are weak and emotional and hysterical and given to tears when they are "periodicially" feeling down -- all of this is irrelevant.  Any reaction is simply Clinton and the Clintonistas refusing to accept reality -- that people hate her for all kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with gender.

Any suggestion that the (mostly male) media has been sexist in its treatment of Hillary is dismissed as overreaction.  A protest of MSNBC, organized by Clinton supporters, was widely mocked and dismissed on this very site.  Bunch of whiners.  They're not even real feminists, anyway.  If they really cared about feminism, they'd support Obama.

This primary season is almost over, and Obama is almost certainly going to be the nominee.  And so we are seeing these diaries now from Obama supporters, explaining to the rest of us where she -- and we -- went wrong.  And these diaries want to make it very clear to the rest of us that:

sexism had nothing to do with it.  In fact, it was anything but.

But that's a lie.  And that's the problem.

We are Democrats, goddmanit.  We are the party who celebrated 1992 as the Year of the Woman.  We are the party that fights for reproductive choice, equal pay, working moms, childcare, healthcare, welfare, Head Start, Title IX, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

We used to take this seriously.  We use to be offended by the way the media treated women.  And now, we dismiss it.  We laugh it off.  We make excuses.  A progressive radio host refers to women in the Democratic party as "bitches" and "fucking whores," and the overwhelming response -- from Democrats! -- is to lighten up, to get over it, to even, dear god, acknowledge that this so-called progressive radio host kind of has a point.

It is a problem.  It's a problem for our party and our country.  It's a problem for every woman I know, even the ones who say it isn't a problem for them because they're not "that kind of feminist."

It's a problem for every elected woman in the Democratic party.  It's a problem for the next woman who has the audacity to throw her hat into the ring.

And casual assurances from the party that we'll get a woman in the White House "someday" or even "soon" do not assure me.  It has been centuries since Victoria Woodhull made the first courageous run for the White House.  Are we there yet?  Have we shattered that glass ceiling yet?

No.

I want more than casual assurances from the party.  I want a realization.  I want an admission.  We have veered so off course from where we are supposed to be on this issue.  Exactly how much progress has been made since the glorious Year of the Woman sixteen years ago?  How many more women are in the Senate?  The House?  The Supreme Court?

We've gone backwards.  And while it's wonderful that we have our first woman Speaker of the House, it's not enough.  It doesn't erase the damage done, it doesn't mean we do not have further to go.

Hillary will not be the nominee, and despite my wishes, Obama probably won't put her on his ticket.  That is his right.  So she will go back to the Senate, perhaps with a consolation prize, such as Majority Leader, perhaps not.

But the problem, the larger problem that this campaign should have proven to all of us does still exist, will not go away.  We can hide our heads in the sand.  We can applaud ourselves for finally breaking through one barrier, the important barrier of race.

But the problem will not be fixed.  The next time a woman runs for president, we will face it again.  Is she tough enough?  Too tough?  Are her clothes too boring or too revealing?  Is she too young?  Too old?  Are her ankles too fat?  Is her hair just right?  How often does she sleep with her husband?  Are her successes in life really her own?  Diamonds or pearls?

Don't tell me sexism isn't real.  Don't tell me it is irrelevant.  Don't tell me it isn't a problem -- a serious problem -- that the Democratic party must address.  If we have the courage to face up to our dark and disdainful history of racism, and even the courage to face the racism that exists today, even within our own party, certainly, somewhere deep within our souls, we have the courage to face up to sexism.

At least, I hope we do.  



Display:


Tips? Recs? Reprimands? (2.00 / 23)

I was surprised that this actually received a generally warm reception over at the Orange Satan.  Curious to see what y'all think...


by Angry Mouse on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:11:14 PM EST

Re: Tips? Recs? Reprimands? (2.00 / 4)

I think the term "Orange Satan" does nothing but divide we who are essentially on the same side.

Does the term "circular firing squad" mean anything?


by PhilFR on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:25:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Orange Satan is snark (2.00 / 5)

it is a mocking reference to how wingnuts think Kos is pure evil.


by JJE on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:27:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Orange Satan is snark (2.00 / 6)

But it's a reference that some here at MyDD have internalized. They really do think DK is a bad, bad place, as opposed to part of the new Dem party.


by PhilFR on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:29:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

But but but...it is! (2.00 / 6)


by CoyoteCreek on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:45:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But but but...it is! (2.00 / 1)

DKos is my enemy. They chose to be my enemy and that's fine with me.


by soyousay on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:32:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But but but...it is! (1.50 / 4)

Exactly.

They ran me out there, didn't want me in their party, so they can now face the consequences.

Circular firing squad, indeed.  Who fired the first shot?

it wasnt me, thats for sure.

But I'm firing back.


Until recently I was selling drugs, and now I'm selling Obama T-shirts.
by switching sides on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:02:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But but but...it is! (none / 0)

And you didn't choose to be their 'enemy'.  Boy that is pretty petulant, to say it kindly.


by yankeeinmemphis on Sat May 17, 2008 at 03:05:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: But but but...it is! (none / 0)

Ah, victomhood! The rally cry of clintonites.


"In the primary you should vote with your heart, but in the general, you should vote with your head" Bill Clinton
by venician on Sat May 17, 2008 at 08:06:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Its easy to Hate harder to Reason (none / 0)

There is a certain immaturity present in the hatred that erupted. There should be a rational debate but when it decends into petty name calling logic gets lost. We should be making well reasoned arguments not trying to make catch phrases like the big league spinners. Honestly I found Great Orange Satan kind of amusing it gave Daily Kos such stature. How rarely MyDD is mentioned on Daily Kos they have moved on to the General. In fact I am not worried about haters in these blogs they are few the people are many. So you can vote for McCain if you like I dont care. You can give McCain money I dont care. I think you and this country will get what it deserves in November no more no less.


by edtastic on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:50:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Isn't that what they (we) call themselves? (2.00 / 5)

I was under the impression that it was a self-deprecating joke over there.

Not intending to be divisive.  I take issue with DKos, but I still participate there (in the hopes that they will return to a more balanced state of mind).

Really, that wasn't intended as a knock on DKos.


by Angry Mouse on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:29:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't that what they (we) call themselves? (2.00 / 1)

I find myself in agreement with you on sexism.  But I find it strange coming from you.  As I recall you came to Kos and pretended to support Hillary.  Then it seemed only moments later you had a diary on the wreck list declaring your support for Obama.

Now I realize you can decry sexism and support Obama but something just doesn't feel right here.  Perhaps I'm influenced by the rumors that Team Obama has encouraged their bloggers to make nice with Hillary supporters and tone down the hate meme.  


by Tolstoy on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:26:48 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'm afraid you have me confused with someone else. (2.00 / 3)

I never pretended to support Hillary.  I DID support Hillary.  And I still think she'd make the better president.  

I did write a diary about a month ago, after FL and MI made clear that they would not do revotes of any kind.  I stated that I no longer believed it was possible for her to win the nomination in a way that would not be destructive for the party, and that I was ready to support Obama as the nominee, despite my several reservations about him, and despite my preference for her.

I would not describe myself as a member of Team Obama.  My feelings about him are lukewarm at best.  There is still a lot I don't like about him.  

But frankly, I don't care.  I want to win in November.  I want to see a Democrat in the White House.  If it's not going to be Hillary, well, fine, I guess it'll have to be Obama.  

I am trying to focus on what I like about him.  It makes it easier to support him.  I have not donated time or money to his campaign, and believe me, if by some miracle, Hillary gets every single last remaining vote and manages to win, I'll be doing my happy dance.

But please, please understand that my heart has always been with Hillary (well, since fall of last year), and I am certainly not one of those Obama people.

I don't like Kool-Aid.  ;-)


by Angry Mouse on Sat May 17, 2008 at 02:02:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"Kool-Aid" (2.00 / 1)

As biting as some of my comments have been on this site, I have never accused any Hillary supporter of being some sort of zombie, or cultist.  I have never said that their support for her was somehow abnormal.

You may not even realize it that you still call Obama supporters Kool-Aid drinkers, but I find it offensive and I'm sure that many others do too.  It denigrates my support of Obama which came after long, hard evaluation.  It pushes people away and gets their guards up, and the first reaction to an attack is to attack back.  That is not conducive to unity here.

I realize that Obama supporters, given our candidate's likelihood of being the nominee have a greater responsibility to be gracious.  However, that does not mean that Hillary supporters have no burden for that cause.  If you truly mean this:

I want to win in November.  I want to see a Democrat in the White House.

If you truly mean that, then the responsibility lies with you too, to not push Obama supporters away.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:06:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Snark alert, dude. (none / 0)

That's all it was.  Chill.


by Angry Mouse on Sat May 17, 2008 at 02:53:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Snark is difficult to gauge online. (none / 0)

The context didn't seem snarklike to me, but I'll take your word for it.


Check out McCain.
by you like it on Sat May 17, 2008 at 03:29:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Snark alert, dude. (none / 0)

I would rec this diary if I could, and I completely agree with the thrust of it. But I think there are two big issues relevant to this site more than any others mentioned up thread.

I have persistently asked a number of prominent Hillary supporters and avowed feminists here (I won't name names for obvious reasons explained in the user guidelines) to counter some disgusting sexist remarks about Michelle Obama. Some of these diarists had even mo'joed such remarks.

As someone who is surrounded by real feminists, I find this partianship a complete betrayal of everthing feminism stands for. To apply these principles selective, just to your own candidate and not the wife of the other, traduces everything that feminism is.


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:15:49 PM EST
[ Parent ]

on Michelle... (2.00 / 1)

You know, it's interesting that lately, I've seen an increase in articles on the web about Michelle, and specifically, how she is being attacked.  I think I've even seen the term "Hillarized."

And yes, I fully agree that such treatment of her is out of line -- the way it was with Hillary 16 years ago.

I suppose, sadly, that perhaps watching Michelle get abused might provoke Democrats to recognize the issues of sexism, even if they've turned a blind eye when it comes to Hillary.  This doesn't mean I hope Michelle will be mistreated -- I wouldn't wish that on anyone.  I guess I would just hope that some good would come from it.

I feel for Michelle, because we know she's about to face some real ugliness.  The irony, of course, is that the one person on the planet who would understand best, and be able to advise her best, is, of course, Hillary Clinton.


by Angry Mouse on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:40:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: on Michelle... (none / 0)

I know. That is a tragic irony. And one some of the more extreme Hillary supporters (maybe they're not even supporters but trolls) seem unaware of.

I rarely go over there, but some diarist here linked to NoQuarter today and Larry Johnson is inciting some disgusting comments about her. Please, tell me these people are republicans

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/05/16/ will-barack-throw-mama-from-the-train/


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:47:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't waste your time on that crap... (none / 0)

I admit, I have taken a look at the more extreme pro-Hillary sites on occasion, but I don't understand those people.  Their total hatred of Obama really puts me off -- and I'm someone who doesn't much care for the guy.

And some of the delusions just make me laugh.  I'm all for keeping your chin up and fighting to the last and all that good "Hillary will never give up" stuff.  

But the reality is that she's not getting the nomination.  And to continue to put forth diaries that suggest Obama is going down, or crashing, or (as I think I saw on this site), "readying to concede" totally undermine the credibiilty of these supporters -- and all Hillary supporters.

I really hope that when the primaries are over, Democrats will find a way to come together again.  I think it will be a lot harder than some people are willing to admit.  I think it is a huge responsibility for Obama -- and I hope he can live up to it.

But we shall see...


by Angry Mouse on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:55:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't waste your time on that crap... (none / 0)

Obama is only the presumptive nominee. He can help, but it's up to democrats to heal the wounds. It takes brave and tough actions by someone like yourself, a true democrat who has realised their favored nominee is unlikely to make it, trying to build bridges between both sides.

On the other hand, I'm completely convinced - in fact I've had posters here confess to me on three occasions - that there are a lot of republicans who, after it became clear McCain was going to win, came to sites like this and Noquarter and Hillaryis44 to cause trouble. And out and out white suprematicist posting with the name of Pagan Power here the other day about blood purity etc.

So all of us have a duty to expose these trolls, and the kind of undemocratic thinking they espouse. They've posed as Hillary supporters - I suppose it could have been the other way round had the primary race gone a different way - but they have no real loyalty to her, and certainly not to liberal progressive causes.


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:04:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't waste your time on that crap... (none / 0)

duende.

You're British correct?

You're not an ex-pat.

I was marveling at your interest in our elections.

Just curious what your political background is in England? Also what do you hear folks in GreatBritain say about this election.

Thanks,

12 dogs


by 12 dogs and a blog on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:54:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't waste your time on that crap... (none / 0)

Gosh. How long have you got?

Yes, British living in London. Though I have lived, worked and married in the US. I wish I knew why I was so addicted to this election: I'm hoping it's because  it will be seen to be a watershed in US history, and thereby world events. I first got involved here in 2004. I also have several close friends involved in these election

Though a fiction writer and dramatist by trade, I've always been a Labour supporter, activist and occasional speechwriter. From that perspective, it's not hard to see who my favoured candidate is, and why I favour him.

The UK, as much of the world, has been fascinated by these primaries. After the long onslaught of the last three months I would say the two big themes are:

1. POSITIVE: How amazing the US has the openness and mobility thrown a biracial candidate with the stature of RFK or JFK.

2. NEGATIVE: how typical that he is being destroyed by the press/Hillary Clinton/american close mindedness.

One of the reasons I persist on coming here, despite having my privileges removed, is to explain - nicely if I can - to Hillary supporters, that the rest of the world is REALLY excited by Obama's candidacy. Not so much by Hillary's. And this isn't because she's a woman, but because she's part of a dynasty.


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Sun May 18, 2008 at 07:33:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't waste your time on that crap... (none / 0)

Fiction writer and dramatist?

Would we have an oportunity to read your work here in the US? I'm all for giving a writer a chance to talk about their work. Not an easy profession and one where the author should get lots of chances to promote their work.

Besides if you are or become well known we can all pat ourselves on the back for having virtually "met" you and have you as a fellow writter on myDD.


by 12 dogs and a blog on Sun May 18, 2008 at 11:02:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Isn't that what they (we) call themselves? (2.00 / 1)

I've never supported Clinton for President yet have been critical of the misogynistic attacks made against her.   If I went back into my history here and at kos of using troll and hide rating points, I suspect it's been more for that than anything else.

There are plenty of good reasons for not voting for Clinton.  Her gender isn't one of them.  


the third eye does not weep. it knows.
by mijita on Sat May 17, 2008 at 02:20:22 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? Recs? Reprimands? (2.00 / 1)

first  - change the subject, it's not sexism, it's not about the experiences of women, it's about someone calling the kos site a dismissive name. What is the plight of women when it comes to defending kos from being dismissed.  


by anna shane on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:10:32 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My sister and I (2.00 / 4)

were discussing this very same subject just today - how we've actually gone backwards.  It's gotten much worse for women - in every conceivable way.  My sister's a teacher.  Boys in her class see noting wrong with calling her a bitch and a ho - they make lewd references, saying she holds no sway over them because of her gender (according to them she's inferior).  

This is a real-time problem folks.  It goes way beyond politics - Clinton's running for president just brought it into sharp focus - just like Obama's candidacy brought out all the racists (something I predicted would happen).  Looks like we've got a longer way to go than anyone realized (and that's not blowing smoke).


by The Fat Lady Sings on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:35:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My sister and I (1.33 / 3)

Well...  I would only say that, to a certain extent, women themselves are complicit in this... We are the ones that patronize the meme that it is better to look good than to be good, as evidenced by the billion dollar beauty industry... we turn on each other over the least offense... and we have allowed ourselves to be objectified...


Like the nominee, don't like the nominee... Our nominee is still better than John McCain...
by JenKinFLA on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:17:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My sister and I (2.00 / 1)

Definitely, let's blame the victim.  


On to the Convention Floor!
by oh puhleeze on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:19:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My sister and I (none / 0)

Definitely, let's blame the victim.  


On to the Convention Floor!
by oh puhleeze on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:19:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My sister and I (2.00 / 1)

Gosh you almost make me want to burn my bra.

oh yeah, never mind, I hate to have my boobs hanging down to my knees when I walk. I guess I will have to continue to contribute to the sexist industries that supply our undies.


by J Rae on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:05:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: My sister and I (none / 0)

no, too, we've brought it on ourselves. When discrimination, and the rise of ugly hate speech against women, is acknowledged, well, we brought it on ourselves.  


by anna shane on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:12:22 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? Recs? Reprimands? (2.00 / 4)

It did because there is truth to it.  IMHO, sexism was not why Senator Clinton lost.  But the campaign revealed a dark underbelly of latent racism and overt sexism.  Hell yes it's a problem.


by Same As It Ever Was on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:49:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? Recs? Reprimands? (none / 0)

Hillary lost back in 2002 with her cynical vote for the War in Iraq.

If not for that, she would be the nominee now.


"we have the most radical president we have ever had, leading our country right now, and he is completely uneducable." - Seymour Hersh
by Lefty Coaster on Sat May 17, 2008 at 02:05:46 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Mothers don't vote for war (2.00 / 3)

they know it is their children that will be sent off to die.

And they stand in solidarity with Iraqi mothers who know that their children will be killed also.

If Hillary had wanted to elevate the dialogue on sexism, she could have, instead of making up slights about sexism for pure political gain.

Hillary's campaign strategy was a cunning stunt. Pretending that because Obama was taller and had to look down at her, that he was a sexist pig.

The worst was the cynical use of race and religion for political gain. Ask Pennsylvania and ask West Virgina.


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:53:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? Recs? Reprimands? (none / 0)

Hillary hasn't lost, and calling me delusional or telling me I'm hurting Barack's chances in the GE by not acknowledging his superiority won't change that.  Most Americans were actually in favor of that war, there aren't enough of us who opposed it to elect a president, and I'm for her. Go figure.  


by anna shane on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:15:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillary put her career before our service members (2.00 / 2)

with that cynical vote. Ironically at the time it was seen as the politically safe vote. Hillary wasn't about to swim upstream to do the right thing.

People like that don't deserves my vote.


"we have the most radical president we have ever had, leading our country right now, and he is completely uneducable." - Seymour Hersh
by Lefty Coaster on Sat May 17, 2008 at 02:07:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? Recs? Reprimands? (2.00 / 1)

Most Americans were actually in favor of that war

There was in fact almost universal belief in America that Saddam had WMD. A CBS News poll in Feb 2003 following Colin Powell's "evidence" delivered to the UN, found that only 5% of Americans didn't believe in the WMD.  But although 66% of Americans said they would approve of military action to remove Hussein, less than half of Americans believed that the WMD was an imminent threat requiring military action.  According to the poll,

Americans want the U.N. inspectors to keep trying: 59% say they should be given more time. Despite the new evidence presented last week by the Bush Administration, this feeling has not changed very much since last fall.

At the time, the economy was polling as the number one issue, not Iraq.  Of course, once Bush launched the war, and Americans were concerned about and proud of our soldiers on the ground, support for both the commander-in-chief and his war naturally rose.


Keep it short. DemocraticShortList.com
by Rob in Vermont on Sat May 17, 2008 at 02:24:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? Recs? Reprimands? (1.50 / 2)

from The Nation written by Katha Pollitt 01/07/08

thenation.com/blogs/anotherthing?bid=256 ped=26736

John Edward s just lost my vote. How dare he take cheap shots at Hillary Clinton for letting her eyes mist over (not "crying" as was widely reported) at a meeting with voters in Portsmouth NH earlier today? This is a man who has used his most private tragedies--his wife's cancer, his son's fatal accident -- in his campaign in a way that had a woman done the same she would surely be accused of "oprahfying' the lofty realm of politics. This is also the man who promoted himself early on as the real women's candidate, and who has repeatedly used his likeable wife to humanize his rather slick and one-dimensional persona. Today he deployed against Hillary the oldest, dumbest canard about women: they're too emotional to hold power. ABC's Political Radar blog reports:

"Edwards, speaking at a press availability in Laconia, New Hampshire, offered little sympathy and pounced on the opportunity to bring into question Clinton's ability to endure the stresses of the presidency. Edwards responded, 'I think what we need in a commander-in-chief is strength and resolve, and presidential campaigns are tough business, but being president of the United States is also tough business.'"
nyone remeber this:


by suzieg on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:00:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? Recs? Reprimands? (2.00 / 2)

The reason why there was a major speech on race is because Obama gave one.  Should someone else given one on sexism?


We care about politics because we know politics matters for people's lives and opportunities.
by politicsmatters on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:28:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Tips? Recs? Reprimands? (none / 0)

she went to New Orleans and spoke to it, and he didn't. He rightly wished to avoid addressing racial issues and he ducked them until the Wright controversy. Then he later had to go back on some of what he'd said. The media loves him, his supporters love him, I just think he's the least electable of the two remaining candidates and his weakness in the GE is the only thing about him that's gaining momentum.

We don't need a public speech on sexism, it exists, we live with it, and when we have the energy we call it out. We're offended when it's denied and dismissed, and in particular by men who claim to tell us our own reality.  That's cause it's offensive.  It's reality based offense. But it does prove the Barack's bloggers haven't had an in-service in charm.   There may be some women who also deny it and what i say annoys them, but I'd say that even denied it's experienced.  


by anna shane on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:21:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Back that statement up... (2.00 / 1)

I want to know when and where Obama linked Huckabee's comment to race... because I somehow missed that one.  
Or are you claiming that you won't support a particular candidate, based on something one of his anonymous supporters posted online somewhere?
by alb on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:04:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Response to the Denial of Sexism (2.00 / 6)

bravo!

http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/7/14504 8/7823


"Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle." Plato
by canadian gal on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:16:29 PM EST

Read yours as well... (2.00 / 3)

and bravo to you too!


by Angry Mouse on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:25:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Response to the Denial of Sexism (2.00 / 6)

I think the whole point is that sexism exists and is a big deal, that there was some sexism undeniably thrown at Hillary but that ultimately sexism is not why she lost.


by Benjaminomeara on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:18:32 PM EST

Re: A Response to the Denial of Sexism (2.00 / 1)

... or why she may lose (trying not to anger anybody)


by Benjaminomeara on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:18:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Response to the Denial of Sexism (2.00 / 2)

correct.


It's all about McCain/Bush now...
by thereisnospoon on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:19:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That's not MY point... (2.00 / 5)

I went around and around with the folks at DKos on this.

I am not blaming sexism for Hillary's loss.  She made a lot of mistakes, no question.

But Hillary isn't even really my point.  Because when the next woman runs, we'll go through this all over again, no matter who she is.

And having an honest conversation about sexism -- not Hillary -- is my point.


by Angry Mouse on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:20:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's not MY point... (2.00 / 3)

BUT!   If Hillary had noted voted to authorize the war, and then stood by that vote (as compared to Edwards) she may have well had my vote and my dollars.


by PhilFR on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:27:51 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We get it (2.00 / 9)

there are legit reasons to favor Obama.  I do myself.  But that doesn't mean there hasn't been nasty sexism that has not received the condemnation it deserves.


by JJE on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:30:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We get it (2.00 / 4)

Both true.

Reconciliation rocks!


by PhilFR on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:32:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We get it (none / 0)

"there are legit reasons to favor Obama.  I do myself.  But that doesn't mean there hasn't been nasty sexism that has not received the condemnation it deserves." JJE

No it hasn't.

Not by a long shot.

Kind of breathtaking the hypocracy.


by 12 dogs and a blog on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:03:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's not MY point... (2.00 / 3)

BUT one reason Hillary did not apologize was because she needed to overcompensate for what she predicted would be sexist GOP innuendo campaign about women being weak.
So indirectly on this one I actually think it had to do with sexism (I have to believe she has enough judgement to know the vote was wrong in the first place).
by Benjaminomeara on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:31:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's not MY point... (2.00 / 3)

But if you know something as big as this is wrong, and you're still going to vote for it because of how it positions you..

Anyway, that's the past. We have a big job to do between now and November.


by PhilFR on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:53:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's not MY point... (none / 0)

point three - its fair for anyone to 'know' a woman's real motives.  You can know her better than she knows herself.  


by anna shane on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:33:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's not MY point... (none / 0)

"point three - its fair for anyone to 'know' a woman's real motives.  You can know her better than she knows herself. " --Anna Shane

Anna Shane.Is that a question or a statement?


by 12 dogs and a blog on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:56:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's not MY point... (none / 0)

Phil.

My understanding is that Sen. Edwards did vote for the war and then apologized for this after the information about the war started to come out and after the 2004 election. It was when he began to possition himself for his 2008 campaign.


by 12 dogs and a blog on Sun May 18, 2008 at 12:59:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's not MY point... (2.00 / 5)

Fair enough.
I guess I was responding to both diaries but our mindset is still so much set onto the race ...

But I agree that we should start looking back and reflecting on what went wrong and right and how we can fight it because whether it is Clinton-Obama, Obama-Clinton or Obama-Sebelius, we may have to deal with sexism all over again by the fall.

One of my biggest regrets as an Obama supporter is that he didn't speak up for Clinton at times where attacks were particular obviously sexist. I hope he has an occasion to speak frankly and forcefully about gender issues in the next few weeks to send a message that he knows and understands and intends to fight it. I certainly think pressuring him on that would be more constructive than a more narrowly political play for the VP spot.

In particular, one can already see how the GOP is using the exact same kind of despicable attacks they used to use on HIllary but this time on Michelle.
Maybe Michelle could jump into the fray. She seems to me someone who is not afraid to speak her mind on something like that.


by Benjaminomeara on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:29:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's not MY point... (2.00 / 3)

I admire how Hillary has fought the sexist comments, dragging the media into line.

Obama has stood up for Hillary when things have happened around him.  I've seen several speeches where he has shushed murmurs at his rallies.

Yes, there is more that we all need to do.

Even as an Obama supporter, I get angry when I see the sexist treatment that Hillary has received, and agree that it needs to be changed.

Thanks, Angry Mouse, for acknowledging her mistakes so that we can get past that and focus on the important issues that you are raising.

Reccd.


by Kiku on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:12:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

He smiled broadly when his followers (2.00 / 2)

booed Hillary at several rallies...so kind of him.

And you think he defended her?


by CoyoteCreek on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:48:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He smiled broadly when his followers (1.75 / 4)

So, anyone who boos Hillary is sexist? There's no good reasons to boo her?

You're mixing arguments here.


by PhilFR on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:56:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He smiled broadly when his followers (1.00 / 1)

With Edwards the most overt sexist of them all! Remember when asked if Clinton was qualified to be President because she cried in NH and he answered without hesitation NO! Reap what you sow, dear Obama supporters. Called her every name in the book along with her supporters and now that he realizes that there's a major backlash against him and his nomination might get in trouble he hires 400 bloggers to try to make nice. They can all go to hell! I'll vote for Nader before Obama who's just as sexist! This "sweetie" will not come around! He should have learned from his wife that we never forget


by suzieg on Sat May 17, 2008 at 08:43:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: He smiled broadly when his followers (none / 0)

And how many times has she defended him?

We need to move past this tit for tat.  

There are faults on both sides.  There are benefits on both sides.


by Kiku on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:24:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's not MY point... (2.00 / 4)

I hope more of the rabid supporters on both sides get this.

Kudos!


by v2r1 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:36:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's not MY point... (1.66 / 3)

As an Obama supporter and a feminist (yes, this is possible) I agree with Angry Mouse. The fact is that both sexism and racism, overt and latent, have played a part in this Democratic race and more importantly in the coverage of the race.

On the hopeful side, I truly don't believe that anyone was sunk or led to victory because of race and gender. On the depressing side, the press just sucks in its coverage and does absolutely nothing constructive on the conversation on gender and race we should be having.

I never watched news on television until the beginning of this race in Iowa and after New Hampshire I almost turned it off for good again because of the coverage of Senator Clinton and what motivates women voters. It was disgusting and I was raving mad. How many times in the news have you heard about what Clinton was wearing? Ever hear talk about what McCain or Obama are wearing?

That said I also felt manipulated by Clinton in regards to gender and I did not appreciate it at all. I know many will disagree with this as they will disagree with my contention that Clinton also manipulated race. I supported Clinton until South Carolina and then they lost me and continued to dig a deeper hole. The Clintons are smart, savvy politicians and I find it very hard to believe that they didn't make a tactical choice that they thought they could gloss over later.

As for Obama, I do find his use of sweetie insulting but then I remember he has to go home to Michelle and that she'll set him straight.

I know I'm rambling. And probably raising contentious points between Obama and Clinton supporters. Just some thoughts.


by batgirl71 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:52:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That's not MY point... (none / 0)

Personally, I think the way that Sen. Clinton has been treated in this primary and before says that's it for female presidential candidates if she isn't on the ticket.

That's it. I hope no one here has presidential aspirations but it ain't gonna happen. :( Besides I have seen folks here discuss possible VP running mates. In that discussion I heard tell that the VP will be treated like a figure head anyway with no real duties.


by 12 dogs and a blog on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:13:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: A Response to the Denial of Sexism (2.00 / 6)

Awesome diary.  Highly rec'd.

This is by no means all I took from this amazing diary, but I would like to comment on one part that jumped out at me.

The next time a woman runs for president, we will face it again.  Is she tough enough?  Too tough?  Are her clothes too boring or too revealing?  Is she too young?  Too old?  Are her ankles too fat?  Is her hair just right?  How often does she sleep with her husband?  Are her successes in life really her own?  Diamonds or pearls?

I'm not sure this can be chalked up to sexism as much as our totally corrupt MSM.  Look how similar all these items you listed are to what Gore endured for two solid years.  From earth tones to alpha male to how many buttons his suits had.

The MSM has for decades tried to mock our leading Dems.  The men are always wimps and the women are always ball busters.  Obama did get off lightly this season... so far.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:22:44 PM EST

Yes, yes... (2.00 / 6)

Obama did get off lightly this season... so far.

RezkoWrightRezkoWrightTooBlackNotBlackEn oughRezkoEmptySuitPlagiarismWrightRezkoM uslimRadicalPreacherBlackBlackBlackGodda mAmericaMichelleProudRezkoDidIMentionRez ko...

Yeah, he's had a cakewalk...so far.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:30:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, yes... (2.00 / 3)

I was only refering to the type of attacks listed.  Obama has not been subject to many attacks as trivial as how much his haircuts cost, or whether they showed cleavage, or how many buttons his suit has.

You are correct as well.  Obama has been subject to unfair attacks from the press, some of which lasted for weeks.  The way he handled himself in those situations made me extremely proud to be a supporter.



Lost rate and rec for issuing a '1' to a trollish comment. The troll, not so much.

by map on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:37:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, yes... (2.00 / 2)

Flagpins? Kindergarten essays? Who is more patriotic Wright or Obama?

Obama has had his fair share of idiocy to deal with.  So has Hillary.

The media has played both of them, and push issues to drag on and dramatize the contest.

What I do see, is that as an Obama supporter, I have not been as aware of the issues that Hillary has faced, I missed the cleavage, and some of the others.  Not that I don't care, but it hasn't been in my radar.

That's probably the case with Hillary's supporters as well.  It's not intentional, it just isn't in the radar.

I'm really angry at the sexist comments.  I'm also angry at the racist comments.

It's hard to see the world through a different set of glasses.  Angry mouse found an excellent way to  show it.


by Kiku on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:29:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't blame the MSM (2.00 / 4)

The worst abuses were on the so-called progressive blogs.  That's the most depressing thing about it.

The sites that were supposed to be the "new media" were far worse than the "old media."


by dbrown04 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:38:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't blame the MSM (none / 0)

I'm calling you on this one. Back it up, or retract it.


by PhilFR on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:58:11 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yikes! Over-reacting a bit, maybe? (2.00 / 4)

Yesterday, Black Angus challenged me to come up with three cases of sexism in the campaign.  I came up with seven without even googling.  I don't have time to do it again, so I'm copying some of my response below:

Some examples of sexism:

1) Clitnon (dKos)

2) Pervasive use of "bitch" (dKos)

3) Near daily diaries that begin: "Why I can never vote of Hillary Clinton" (dKos)

4) "How are we gonna beat the bitch?" (McCain supporter, no outrage)

5) "She wouldn't even be in this race if her husband hadn't fooled around."  (Matthews)

6)  "Hillary's likable enough"  (Obama)  

7) Words that pop into your mind when you think of Hillary Clinton: number 7, "bitch" (Russert)

8)  Fatal Attraction (Rudin)

9)"I think what we need in a commander-in-chief is strength and resolve, and presidential campaigns are tough business, but being president of the United States is also tough business." (Edwards)

10) "Hillary's a monster" (Obama's young female NS adviser)

11) "Bring in the clown" (TPM)

These are just the ones that popped into my head while sitting here.  There are tons more.

Then my elaboration:

Let's just take John Edward's response to Hillary's near tears in NH.  During the 1970's one of the reasons that was put forward by the anti-feminists was that the reason a women wasn't suitable to be President is that she was too emotional to be Commander-in-Chief.  John Edwards was trying to tap into the meme.  Sexist, I'm afraid.

Let's try another.  After Obama's post-Wright speech, Dahlia Lithwick (and a co-author) at Slate wrote an article wondering whether Hillary Clinton should give a "big" speech too.  One can think about a lot of big speeches that Clinton might give: Gender, poverty, children... Their suggestion?  A big speech about "Bill."  Sexist and demeaning.

Here's another. After Gen. Petreus testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee in April, there was a lot of discussion about how the three Presidential candidates did with the "Commander-in-Chief" test.  According to NPR, Hillary Clinton asked the best question, hands down.  So does that mean she should be President?  No.  It means that she should stay in the Senate asking questions.  So what's a women's role: Asking questions, not answering them.  Sexist without qualification.

Let's go back to "How are we going to stop the bitch?"  comment.  If you go look at the tape, everyone in the room laughed.  John McCain laughed but then feigned embarrassment.  That's the Republican response.  But the real question is, How did the new press deal with it?  They reported it.  But was there any outrage?  No.  Imagine if it had been reported that a Republican had queried McCain, "How are we gonna beat that Nigger?"  It would have been nuclear.

Now, let's take Tim Russert.  This was on Meet the Press, mind you.  He was reporting on a Pew survey that asked people what was the first word that popped into people's minds when they hear Candidate X's name.  The first six words that people think of when they hear Hillary Clinton's name where quite positive.  The first six responses covered 90% of the respondents. The seventh is "bitch."  Now, Russert didn't talk about the first six.  In his round table, they all focused on word number 7.  A word, that only a minority of Republican morons think is applicable.  

Now, lets talk about "Clitnon."  The use of this derogatory term became so severe on dKos, that they actually had to write code to suppress it.  But, only after a Hillary supporter on dKos pitched a major fit.

Let's take a few more.  When the Rev. Wright episode broke, TPM (among others) was quick to point out that Rev. Wright, far from being a nut, was preaching from a tradition of Black Liberation Theology.  Now, just for the record, I agree with a lot of Rev. Wrights opinions (though not all).  Shortly thereafter, we had this little imbroglio with Geraldine Ferraro.  Now, a lot of people thought Ferraro's defense of Clinton was weird.  TPM's caption under her photo was "Send in the Clown."  Well guess what?  While Ferraro's comments may have seemed nuts, she was actually drawing on a very effective strategy that feminists used in the 1970s to get people to realize their own sexism.  Admittedly, she didn't do it very well.  But feminists from the time recognized it for what it was.  The next week, Sen. Kerry had a rather stupid defense of Obama.  And, in case you have noticed, Sen. Kerry's face lends itself well to the "clown" motif.  But did TPM draw the obvious parallel?  Of course not.  Double standard, I'm afraid.  (Sometimes also referred to as "sexism.")

Now, as long as we're on TPM.  Josh Marshall is a pretty smart guy.  Smart enough to see that Barack   Obama has a hard time arguing his way out of a paper bag.  (See, for example, Marshall's take on the South Carolina debate.)  Now, does Clinton's obvious domination of the debates make Marshall think that she "wins" the debates?  Of course not.  Obama wins on some unknowable criteria (that doesn't involve logic or knowledge or eloquence.)

Now, let's take another one: I've bee repeatedly rebuked while blogging for Hillary with the line that Hillary's problems are the consequence of her high negatives and that's somehow a deficiency of hers.  Now, where do you suppose high negavtives come from?  Couldn't be the Republican slime machine, now could it?  The Republicans and sexists went after her from day one of Bill's Administration.  They didn't like the hat she wore to Bill's inauguration.  She didn't have a favorite chocolate chip cookie recipe.  She had independent ideas.  All sins ... if you're a sexist. Oh, and that other sin: thinking that every one should have health care.  Now that is truly beneath contempt.  The anti-Clinton "progressive" blogosphere was perfectly happy to use those Republican-generated/sexist negatives for their own purposes.

There are tons more.  It just goes on and on.  It boggles the mind that you don't see it.


by dbrown04 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:09:15 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yikes! Over-reacting a bit, maybe? (none / 0)

After Obama's post-Wright speech, Dahlia Lithwick (and a co-author) at Slate wrote an article wondering whether Hillary Clinton should give a "big" speech too.  One can think about a lot of big speeches that Clinton might give: Gender, poverty, children... Their suggestion?  A big speech about "Bill."  Sexist and demeaning.

Not really. Bill's one of the people that have shown their attitude about gender to be negative -- as he seemingly saw nothing wrong with a boss asking for sex from his female underlings.

Hillary remains associated to this man, same as Wright was associated to Obama.


by Aris Katsaris on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:42:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Shooting fish in a barrel (2.00 / 2)

You guys are making this too easy.

Bill didn't think what he was doing was OK and Hillary confronted him on it.  By contrast, Rev. Wright is thoroughly unapologetic and Obama sat in the pews for 20 years and never made a peep.

Furthermore, Hillary publicly explained her decision to stay with Bill in spite of his behavior.  In contrast, until forced to confront the issue, Obama maintained the position that his pastor was not "particularly controversial."

Clinton confronted and then forgave.  Obama tried to sweep it under the rug.

So why would Hillary need to make a big speech about Bill?  She dealt with a profoundly personal and painful issue in a straight, honest, public and direct fashion.

Once again, you are denying the obvious.  What a lot of Obama supports have done on the blogosphere to advance his candidacy is really troubling and certainly not very "progressive."  You all would be a lot better off just admitting it.


by dbrown04 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 10:16:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It's just old generation democrats (2.00 / 1)

vs the new generation democrats.

Time passes, things move on.

Odd that the thought of an Impeached ex-President being first spouse never seemed to bother anyone.

It is progressive to use a 50 state strategy. It is progressive to use small donors to fund  your campaign.


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:00:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

The New Democratic Lexicon (2.00 / 1)

Clitnon
Bitch
Cunt
Monster

That's what you want?  That's what we fought for?  That's what we endured so much for?

That's what makes me want to let you fight your battles yourself.  If you had to fight for your own equality you might not be so dismissive.  You might be a little more appreciative.  You might look a little closer at what Hillary Clinton has to say.  You might pay a little more attention to the battles that she has waged on your behalf.

That's why I'm writing in Hillary Clinton on my ballot next November.


by dbrown04 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 11:29:18 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Excuse me (none / 0)

Your comment is disgusting.

Playing the victim, as you seem to enjoy, is hardly the high water mark of women's liberation.

Take a break and ask yourself why you chose to put words in people's mouths that aren't there. How sad.


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Sat May 17, 2008 at 12:22:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You have just proved my point (2.00 / 1)

Did you even read the thread you decided to jump into?

This thread started with a challenge to me to prove that the new media was as bad as the old media where sexism is concerned.  In fact, I was told to either provide evidence or retract my statement.  So I provided evidence as requested.  You decided to jump in and argued that my evidence was simply old vs. new Democrat.  So my question back to you is, "this is what you want the new Democratic party to be about?"

Now, I see you are quite offended by the words that began my comment.  You know what?  You've justed proved my point.  Even new Democrats find this language offensive.

P.S., Obama supporters seemed to be having a particularly hard time following the discussion today.  What's up?


by dbrown04 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 03:51:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Too cute by half (none / 0)

Use offensive words to claim that they are as offensive now as they were then.

What's you point?


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:27:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My point: (none / 0)

I was challenged to provide evidence of sexism in the new media.

I provided such evidence.

You claimed that I'm just old.

So I gave you some examples.

You found may examples offensive.

I said, "So do I.  That's my point."

You said, "So what's your point?"

I said, "We both find these terms offense.  So its really not about me being old.  Its about sexist language which was offensive in the 1970s still being offensive today."

So we agree. Sexist language is offensive.

Anybody who uses it needs to do some soul-searching.  That would include a lot of dKos, Talking Points Memo, The Huffington Post, NBC, Keith Olberman, Ken Rudin, Samantha Power,...

Clear enough? Or do you need stick figures?

And, I still want to know why Obama supporters are being so dense and uninteresting today.  Any insights would be appreciated.


by dbrown04 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:07:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama supporters are all retarded sexists (none / 0)

There feel better now.

Moving the discussion forward are you?

Or staying stuck in "poor me I am the victim of (fill in the blank) mode"

Good luck to ya! Sounds like you need it.


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Sat May 17, 2008 at 05:30:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Right now you have a D (none / 0)

And I'm an easy grader.


by dbrown04 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:10:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

What a lovely individual you are (none / 0)

I will give you an A+ for sanctimonious bitterness.

I am sorry you are so angry because it doesn't do much for your candidate.


overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Sat May 17, 2008 at 09:25:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: What a lovely individual you are (none / 0)

Miss liberty

I've been reading your comments and ya know what they remind me of the old saying.

That a wise ass isn't the same as a wise person.

I'll let ya guess which one I think you are.

D- minus.

:(


by 12 dogs and a blog on Sun May 18, 2008 at 01:43:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks for reading...... (none / 0)



overthrow the government~participate
by missliberties on Sun May 18, 2008 at 08:20:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Sexism, Obama & the media (2.00 / 4)

Map,

I just had an "aha" with your comment. We talk so much about how sexism has affected Clinton and racism has affected Obama but the fact is that the way the MSM covered Gore and is trying to cover Obama is also sexist.  There is an implication in the press that certain traits are "female" and others "male" and that the "male" traits are superior to the "female."

That may be why I'm ultimately disappointed by Clinton's campaign. She has worked hard in a way to be seen as "male." Unfortunately that may be right now the only way a woman can win. I hope not. Because if a woman is no different than a man then what difference will a woman in the White House make.

Of course this is an old feminist argument which reminds me that there isn't feminism but feminisms.


by batgirl71 on Fri May 16, 2008 at 11:59:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sexism, Obama & the media (2.00 / 1)

Why do you see Hillary as trying to be "male"?

There is no standard of feminine except in peoples minds. My standard would not be the same as someone elses.

Personally I don't see Clinton as trying to be male, I see a women who is behaving as herself.
Whether that is your idea of feminine or not is all in your mind, but not necessarily in everyone elses.


by J Rae on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:23:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sexism, Obama & the media (2.00 / 2)

point four - a woman seeking power is pretending to be a man.  


by anna shane on Sat May 17, 2008 at 01:35:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sexism, Obama & the media (2.00 / 1)

Nope, that's not what I'm saying.

Just one example of what I'm talking about: Both the MSM AND Hillary's campaign have taken delight in talking about "Hillary's cajones." Why do they use this language? What does it represent if not "male" characteristics? The implication of the media message has been Clinton is more of a "man" than Obama. You'll notice I put "male" and "man" in quotations because these words become problematic in the way we are talking about them.

Here are some interesting questions when we talk about feminism. Are women and men different? If there is a difference is it essentialist or societal? If it is societal, i.e. the position of women within society, then does that difference disappear as the roles of male and female are redefined and the position of women changes within society? A common feminism 101 hypothetical is that if you imagine a power structure where women hold the power would the world look the same? For instance would the history of war look different?

I'm not taking a position on these questions here and I'm not trying to belittle or misconstrue others opinions and words. These are very interesting and important questions that occur with or without the Clinton campaign although an analysis of the Clinton campaign and societal and media reaction creates an opportunity to examine these questions.

I always thought the first women and/or black President would come from the conservative party in the US because women/blacks espousing conservative views are less threatening to the status quo. I am happy that I will be proven wrong this election when the Democratic candidate, whether she or he, is sworn into office in January 2009.


by batgirl71 on Sat May 17, 2008 at 02:20:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I have a problem (2.00 / 1)

with both the previous diary and this one.

The problem is that both diaries address the issue without acknowledging the individual. When this diary says there is sexism, there appears to be an implication that everyone has some sub-conscious sexism that keeps them from supporting Hillary. The Other incorrectly asserts that there is no sexism.

Fact of the matter is, there are actually some people who are not sexist. And some of these genuinely non-sexist people do not support Clinton. And some people are sexist, and some of these people do not support Clinton.

The problem comes when people feel they have been wrongly accused of sexism just because they oppose Clinton. That is the underlying mental state which motivated the Other.

The Other was an overreaction. And this diary is an overreaction.


John McCain wants to make abortion illegal
by Lost Thought on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:23:16 PM EST

Maybe you missed my point... (2.00 / 4)

Because I don't want to talk about Hillary.  I want to talk about the treatment of her by the media and the party.  The explicitly sexist treatment.  

I fully understand that many people take issue with her for legitimate reasons that have nothing to do with sexism.  

However, we have seen sexism in this campaign, and to deny otherwise is to turn a blind eye to a problem that will continue to haunt the Democratic party long after this race is decided.

But I am not listing sexism as THE reason Hillary lost.


by Angry Mouse on Fri May 16, 2008 at 10:27:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

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